Discussion:
Huckabee key to McCain victory/defeat
(too old to reply)
edward ohare
2008-04-13 00:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Mike Huckabee, who is currently busy blaming evangelical leaders for
his failed Presidential candidacy, may hold the key to John McCain's
victory or defeat in the Presidential election. Rather than pointing
fingers, he ought to be figuring out what he can do to get the second
spot on the ticket.

With almost anyone McCain can choose as a running mate - except
Huckabee - the religious right will stay home on election day. Can
McCain win without these traditional Republican supporters?

First courted by Ronald Reagan with vague notions of a future America
based on evangelical biblical morality that he had zero chance of
delivering on, they, over time, became the single strongest group
within the party. The transformation of a special interest group to
be courted and soothed to the controlling group occurred in a mere two
decades.

With the current President, they got one of their own in the White
House, who promptly started persecuting anyone different from them
(gays, as an example) and sticking the federal government's nose in
places it didn't belong (reference the let Terri Schivo "live"
fiasco), and is on the verge of success at virtually outlawing
abortion (thoughtful people still must wonder if either of the Bush
twins became pregnant during their underage drinking escapades and
secretly had an abortion).

McCain, of course, isn't near as zealous on these issues, getting
some, but an inadequate number of points with evangelicals for his
stand on Iraq and terrorism. The evangelicals will never stand for
another religion calling them infidels, and McCain's positions on Iraq
and terrorism plays directly to this, although it is unknown whether
this is result of coincidence or planning on McCain's part.

So there are many reasons for McCain to choose Huckabee as his Vice
President. But if McCain selects Huckabee, he will lose the votes of
many the independents and conservative Democrats currently leaning his
way. For them, Huckabee as Vice President is a disaster waiting to
happen.

It is clear that at age 71, John McCain has a significant chance of
not completing even a single term as President. And that, of course
is the real reason the evangelicals would support a McCain/Huckabee
ticket: the idea McCain would die in office and their man would become
President.

Under McCain's policy the US would still be in Iraq. Bush's "stay the
course" phrase, used numerous times in the face of ample evidence of
failure, would be replaced by Huckabee's "I believe in miracles".
That is, of course reassuring to the evangelicals. But at the same
time, its quite disturbing to more moderate religious people, who can
note a general shortage of miracles, such as numerous prayers failing
to cure Terri Schiavo, and Huckabee's own failed "miracle" campaign.

Anecdotal "evidence" aside, perhaps a meaningful statistic on the lack
of miracles in modern times comes from the Catholic Church. There
have been almost no new saints over the past few centuries.
raven1
2008-04-13 00:23:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:14:31 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Mike Huckabee, who is currently busy blaming evangelical leaders for
his failed Presidential candidacy, may hold the key to John McCain's
victory or defeat in the Presidential election. Rather than pointing
fingers, he ought to be figuring out what he can do to get the second
spot on the ticket.
As a loyal Democrat, I couldn't agree more.
Post by edward ohare
With almost anyone McCain can choose as a running mate - except
Huckabee - the religious right will stay home on election day. Can
McCain win without these traditional Republican supporters?
He certainly can't win with *only* them. Huckabee as the VP nominee
would keep moderate Republicans, McCain's base, at home in droves, and
virtually guarantee that the number of Democratic cross-over votes
would be negligible. Are you sure that's the course to victory?
edward ohare
2008-04-13 00:36:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:23:27 -0400, raven1
Post by raven1
Post by edward ohare
With almost anyone McCain can choose as a running mate - except
Huckabee - the religious right will stay home on election day. Can
McCain win without these traditional Republican supporters?
He certainly can't win with *only* them. Huckabee as the VP nominee
would keep moderate Republicans, McCain's base, at home in droves, and
virtually guarantee that the number of Democratic cross-over votes
would be negligible. Are you sure that's the course to victory?
Dunno. Looks to me like the religious folk are the majority of the
Republican Party, and that there's more of them than there are
independents and Dems who would otherwise vote for McCain.
raven1
2008-04-13 04:59:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:36:48 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:23:27 -0400, raven1
Post by raven1
Post by edward ohare
With almost anyone McCain can choose as a running mate - except
Huckabee - the religious right will stay home on election day. Can
McCain win without these traditional Republican supporters?
He certainly can't win with *only* them. Huckabee as the VP nominee
would keep moderate Republicans, McCain's base, at home in droves, and
virtually guarantee that the number of Democratic cross-over votes
would be negligible. Are you sure that's the course to victory?
Dunno. Looks to me like the religious folk are the majority of the
Republican Party,
They're a substantial, (and very vocal) minority, which the mainstream
Republican Party has been happy to play for fools since Ronald Reagan,
but they don't constitute anywhere near the majority of the voting
public. Nor of the Republican Party.

Evangelical Fundamentalism simply doesn't play well outside of the
Bible Belt. Even in the Republican Party; the alliance between the
Party and Evangelicals has always been uneasy; and has become
increasingly so in recent years, greater numbers of Evangelicals are
realizing that for all the lip-service Republicans may pay to them,
they've being conned. The Party in general has no intention of
enacting their social agenda, especially overturning Roe v. Wade
(which is politically too valuable as something to speak of
overturning in principle to ever do so in practice), and in fact,
doesn't trust them very much, considering them to be for the most
part, ignorant yokels, who can be counted on to flock to the polls
like sheep, but would never want them to have actual power. Given
McCain's age, and health history, mainstream Republicans are highly
unlikely to want a genuine religious fanatic like Huckabee (and I'm
sorry for being blunt, but that's how most non-Evangelicals view
Evangelicals, regardless of their own religion or lack thereof) the
proverbial heartbeat away from the Presidency. A McCain-Huckabee
ticket goes down in flames against any Democratic opponent.
Evangelicals don't like McCain, and no one else likes Huckabee.

That said, as a Democrat, *please*, bring it on! Chances are that the
fundies will bolt the Republican Party en masse as a result of the
likely outcome, leaving the Republican Party crippled, and the
Democrats in power for the next few decades.
Post by edward ohare
and that there's more of them than there are
independents and Dems who would otherwise vote for McCain.
McCain himself acknowledges that he needs Independents and cross-over
Democrats to win. Nominate Huckabee, and he'll lose not only them, but
the majority of his base, leading to a Democratic landslide. I'm just
telling you what you're setting yourself up for, as a courtesy.
edward ohare
2008-04-13 19:13:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:59:41 -0400, raven1
Post by raven1
McCain himself acknowledges that he needs Independents and cross-over
Democrats to win. Nominate Huckabee, and he'll lose not only them, but
the majority of his base, leading to a Democratic landslide. I'm just
telling you what you're setting yourself up for, as a courtesy.
If I was certain nomininating Huckabee would bring the results you
described, I would be all for it. I'm just not sure that would be the
outcome. I'd like nothing better than the religious right to be
relegated to insignificance.
Amused
2008-04-13 23:28:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by edward ohare
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:59:41 -0400, raven1
Post by raven1
McCain himself acknowledges that he needs Independents and cross-over
Democrats to win. Nominate Huckabee, and he'll lose not only them, but
the majority of his base, leading to a Democratic landslide. I'm just
telling you what you're setting yourself up for, as a courtesy.
If I was certain nomininating Huckabee would bring the results you
described, I would be all for it. I'm just not sure that would be the
outcome. I'd like nothing better than the religious right to be
relegated to insignificance.
While certainly not "relegated to insignificance", the EVANGELICAL right has
gradually lost it's powerful grip it exercised in the late 80's and early
90's. Certainly, it's still a force, just the Libertarian Right is still a
force, but if it retained the overwhelming power some on the Left seem to
think it does, Huckabee would be the nominee.

Fact, starting somewhere Left of Center, most of the voters profess some
kind of religious or maybe, spiritual (would be a better word) belief.

James...
toto
2008-04-14 19:45:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 18:28:10 -0500, "Amused"
Post by Amused
Post by edward ohare
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:59:41 -0400, raven1
Post by raven1
McCain himself acknowledges that he needs Independents and cross-over
Democrats to win. Nominate Huckabee, and he'll lose not only them, but
the majority of his base, leading to a Democratic landslide. I'm just
telling you what you're setting yourself up for, as a courtesy.
If I was certain nomininating Huckabee would bring the results you
described, I would be all for it. I'm just not sure that would be the
outcome. I'd like nothing better than the religious right to be
relegated to insignificance.
While certainly not "relegated to insignificance", the EVANGELICAL right has
gradually lost it's powerful grip it exercised in the late 80's and early
90's. Certainly, it's still a force, just the Libertarian Right is still a
force, but if it retained the overwhelming power some on the Left seem to
think it does, Huckabee would be the nominee.
Fact, starting somewhere Left of Center, most of the voters profess some
kind of religious or maybe, spiritual (would be a better word) belief.
James...
That includes Barack and Hillary. Did anyone watch the *compassion
forum?*
--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
Just Judy
2008-04-13 14:55:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:36:48 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Dunno. Looks to me like the religious folk are the majority of the
Republican Party, and that there's more of them than there are
independents and Dems who would otherwise vote for McCain.
The folks in alt.fan.toto are interested in this because?
--
Judy~
http://www.frugalsites.net/911/sept11.html
http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/victims_list.htm
edward ohare
2008-04-13 21:40:47 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:55:53 -0400, Just Judy
Post by raven1
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:36:48 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Dunno. Looks to me like the religious folk are the majority of the
Republican Party, and that there's more of them than there are
independents and Dems who would otherwise vote for McCain.
The folks in alt.fan.toto are interested in this because?
Hello Judy!

Nice group line edit... to see if I was reading alt.fan.toto?
Geoff
2008-04-14 01:09:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by raven1
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:36:48 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Dunno. Looks to me like the religious folk are the majority of the
Republican Party, and that there's more of them than there are
independents and Dems who would otherwise vote for McCain.
The folks in alt.fan.toto are interested in this because?
Because there hasn't been anything resembling news for this group since
1978.
edward ohare
2008-04-14 02:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff
Post by raven1
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:36:48 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Dunno. Looks to me like the religious folk are the majority of the
Republican Party, and that there's more of them than there are
independents and Dems who would otherwise vote for McCain.
The folks in alt.fan.toto are interested in this because?
Because there hasn't been anything resembling news for this group since
1978.
See <***@4ax.com> for an explanation.
toto
2008-04-14 19:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Geoff
Post by raven1
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:36:48 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Dunno. Looks to me like the religious folk are the majority of the
Republican Party, and that there's more of them than there are
independents and Dems who would otherwise vote for McCain.
The folks in alt.fan.toto are interested in this because?
Because there hasn't been anything resembling news for this group since
1978.
The group wasn't around in 1978. It was created in 1995 or 1996 by
someone I know.
--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
toto
2008-04-14 19:46:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 10:55:53 -0400, Just Judy
Post by raven1
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:36:48 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Dunno. Looks to me like the religious folk are the majority of the
Republican Party, and that there's more of them than there are
independents and Dems who would otherwise vote for McCain.
The folks in alt.fan.toto are interested in this because?
LOL. Hi, Judy. It's my group and Edward is an old buddy. So it's
fine to post this here.

(This is not a group for the fans of the band, btw, though some have
posted here a few times)
--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
Kenny McCormack
2008-04-14 19:50:41 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@4ax.com>,
toto <***@wicked.witch> wrote:
...
Post by toto
(This is not a group for the fans of the band, btw, though some have
posted here a few times)
Why Dorothy and Toto went - over the rainbow...
Post by toto
Dorothy
There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
The Outer Limits
toto
2008-04-14 20:54:33 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:50:41 +0000 (UTC),
Post by Kenny McCormack
...
Post by toto
(This is not a group for the fans of the band, btw, though some have
posted here a few times)
Why Dorothy and Toto went - over the rainbow...
hehe. Well, I have been toto ever since I came to usenet and my real
first name is Dorothy.

I admit to loving The Wizard of OZ and Judy Garland, too.
--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
Kenny McCormack
2008-04-14 22:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by toto
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:50:41 +0000 (UTC),
Post by Kenny McCormack
...
Post by toto
(This is not a group for the fans of the band, btw, though some have
posted here a few times)
Why Dorothy and Toto went - over the rainbow...
hehe. Well, I have been toto ever since I came to usenet and my real
first name is Dorothy.
I admit to loving The Wizard of OZ and Judy Garland, too.
But do you catch the reference? What song is the above line from?
toto
2008-04-16 03:49:01 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:32:09 +0000 (UTC),
Post by Kenny McCormack
Post by toto
On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:50:41 +0000 (UTC),
Post by Kenny McCormack
...
Post by toto
(This is not a group for the fans of the band, btw, though some have
posted here a few times)
Why Dorothy and Toto went - over the rainbow...
hehe. Well, I have been toto ever since I came to usenet and my real
first name is Dorothy.
I admit to loving The Wizard of OZ and Judy Garland, too.
But do you catch the reference? What song is the above line from?
No idea.
--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits
Geoff
2008-04-14 01:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by edward ohare
Post by raven1
Post by edward ohare
With almost anyone McCain can choose as a running mate - except
Huckabee - the religious right will stay home on election day. Can
McCain win without these traditional Republican supporters?
He certainly can't win with *only* them. Huckabee as the VP nominee
would keep moderate Republicans, McCain's base, at home in droves,
and virtually guarantee that the number of Democratic cross-over
votes would be negligible. Are you sure that's the course to victory?
Dunno. Looks to me like the religious folk are the majority of the
Republican Party
Guess again, moron.
edward ohare
2008-04-13 01:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by raven1
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:14:31 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
With almost anyone McCain can choose as a running mate - except
Huckabee - the religious right will stay home on election day. Can
McCain win without these traditional Republican supporters?
<cross posting snipped>
Yea, well, I occasionally crosspost a thread starter. So, you think
the groups selected weren't topical? Or what?
Post by raven1
He will more then make up the loss of those far to the right
(including the religious right) by attracting more moderate voters.
That would include Democrats who would never think of voting for Sen.
McCain with Gov. Huckabee on the ticket.
I think he has to take the chance and put Huckabee on the ticket. The
religous folk are automatics with Huckabee on the ticket. The
independents and conservative Democrats are if comes without Huckabee.
Just Judy
2008-04-13 15:01:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:23:33 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Post by raven1
<cross posting snipped>
Yea, well, I occasionally crosspost a thread starter. So, you think
the groups selected weren't topical? Or what?
alt.fan.toto is topical to your starter post to this thread?
--
Judy~
http://www.frugalsites.net/911/sept11.html
http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/victims_list.htm
edward ohare
2008-04-13 19:31:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:01:36 -0400, Just Judy
Post by Just Judy
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:23:33 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Post by raven1
<cross posting snipped>
Yea, well, I occasionally crosspost a thread starter. So, you think
the groups selected weren't topical? Or what?
alt.fan.toto is topical to your starter post to this thread?
Ah, well, an explanation of alt.fan.toto is required.

alt.fan.toto was created as a revenge group against a poster who used
the handle Toto. It is not about the band or about the Wizard of Oz.

Over time the group became a place where Toto's friends posted. The
group has no topic. Its a social group, "Toto and friends".

Since Toto is my friend, anything I post there is topical.
edward ohare
2008-04-13 01:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by edward ohare
Can
McCain win without these traditional Republican supporters?
If any good were to come of these upcoming elections, this would be the best
senario. One of the best things that could happen in U.S. politics is for
both parties stop placating the fringe groups and go back to representing
the majority.
The religious right isn't a fringe group. Its in control of the
Republican Party. Please note one of their own is President right
now... complete proof that faith is no substitute for competency.
raven1
2008-04-13 05:02:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:24:54 -0400, edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Post by edward ohare
Can
McCain win without these traditional Republican supporters?
If any good were to come of these upcoming elections, this would be the best
senario. One of the best things that could happen in U.S. politics is for
both parties stop placating the fringe groups and go back to representing
the majority.
The religious right isn't a fringe group. Its in control of the
Republican Party. Please note one of their own is President right
now...
Bush pays lip service to them, but doesn't seem terribly committed to
any of their agenda. I rather doubt that he even knows what he himself
believes, and I'd be shocked if Dick Cheney had any religious beliefs
at all.
Post by edward ohare
complete proof that faith is no substitute for competency.
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